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naet 12 minutes ago
There's a popular quote: "good artists copy, great artists steal". I've always interpreted "steal" in that context as taking a technique or an inspiration from something, but making it fully your own in your execution (in contrast to direct copying, where you have just made a reproduction).
Given that interpretation, taking someone else's website and changing 3% of it feels more like copying than stealing, even more so when you see the side by side comparison image and it looks completely the same. I love to take inspiration from all over the place, but I like to think I transform it more into my own vision than the author here. I think making a direct copy of something can sometimes be a good learning exercise in the right context, but I would follow it up with your own novel work that maybe uses some concepts you learned from that copying exercise.
As an aside: the current Mintlify marketing site, not the one copied in the article, reads to me as heavily inspired by Stripe's marketing website. Not as direct a copy as the article here though.
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sandcat_ 6 hours ago
I feel like there’s a difference between Virgil Abloh being brought in to work on an iteration of the Air Force 1s and simply ripping off a design from an unrelated company, presumably without permission, and making a few tweaks.
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devin 3 hours ago
Isn't it also well-documented that Virgil Abloh stole more in the ~100% range from up-and-coming designers who then saw nothing for their work?
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underlipton 2 hours ago
If it is, I'm sure that you can easily produce that documentation.
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wahnfrieden 55 minutes ago
It is true and it is trivial to go find it yourself, it's been widely and repeatedly documented for the better part of a decade
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sejje 5 hours ago
Really love the "eye-grabbing top fold"
::looks at bootstrap hero styling::
Oh, right.
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dghlsakjg 4 hours ago
I went to the Mintlify page they copied.
Don’t actually know what the product is and why it might be valuable to me.
Sure is pretty though.
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agilek 36 minutes ago
Is the state of the webdesign really in a point where people bluntly copy others work for commercial purposes and celebrate these acts on their blogs? I think the line is pretty clear here. I remember the old Dan Mall's article on this topic which is much more inspirational (and "correct"):
https://medium.com/@danielmall/stealing-your-way-to-original...•
BHSPitMonkey 26 minutes ago
Do you not believe that the design of the "stolen" landing page was not itself 97% stolen from marketing landing pages that came before it?
It's unusual seeing the process stated so bluntly, but for something as cookie-cutter as a company homepage this has been how web designers have done things for decades. Or, at the very least, it's how the craft is learned.
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simonw 7 minutes ago
I don't think it was.
I think the Mintlify designers viewed dozens if not hundreds of examples, then thought very carefully about exactly what they needed to express for their page and how best to express it. Then they built their page step by step, sweating over every detail.
Then Kibu came along, lifted the entire thing, changed "3%" of it and called it their own.
What Kibu did is gross.
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lofaszvanitt 25 minutes ago
A breakneck race toward absolute decline.
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dghlsakjg 7 hours ago
Copywork is an exercise where writers just copy verbatim another writers work.
If you haven’t done it, it is an extraordinary way to see how the greats work.
It also tends to improve your own writing skills - at least as long as you are copying from your betters.
This seems like the web design version of this.
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fenomas 5 hours ago
Related, Raymond Chandler says in his letters that he taught himself to write a novelette by copying one (by Erle Stanley Gardner). He took the original story and wrote a detailed synopsis, then wrote a novelette from the synopsis, compared it to the original, did rewrites, and so on until he understood what tricks Gardner had used to make the scenes work.
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adrianstoll 2 hours ago
Ben Franklin did this as well. He writes about this exercise in his autobiography.
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thisislife2 54 minutes ago
I too wanted to make this point. In art and designing, copying is how you learn and how you kick start your creativity and innovativeness.
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dchftcs 6 hours ago
A bit tough to say this, but transformers are trained the same way.
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antonvs 2 hours ago
No. They're trained on the data, but there's no point in training at which they go through some exercise that involves creating copies of some of their input using the model being trained.
In any case, why is it "a bit tough to say this"? You thought your ability to learn was irreproducible?
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adamddev1 2 hours ago
Jazz musicians also copy each other's solos for learning and practice purposes, but they would never actually perform more than a couple well placed quotes or licks from another player.
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BHSPitMonkey 23 minutes ago
I think there's a big difference between jazz and corporate landing pages. Should we be surprised or shocked when different brands of microwave ovens have very similar controls?
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adamddev1 6 minutes ago
> "I think there's a big difference between jazz and corporate landing pages."
Hard agree. I had to laugh at that sentence. I realized it wasn't really a fair analogy but also just kind of going off the copywriting example above. It's interesting how helpful this kind of thing is for different disciplines.
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georgemcbay 15 minutes ago
> Should we be surprised or shocked when different brands of microwave ovens have very similar controls?
No, but OTOH I'd be a little bit surprised and confused if someone who designed microwave oven controls wrote a self-important blog post about how skillfully they copied another's design.
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Upvoter33 2 hours ago
Also connected: many composers would write out previous great works, to learn them more deeply. Bach as I recall would do this.
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pjm331 5 hours ago
i have a vague memory of hunter s thompson talking about sitting down and typing out the great gatsby to see how it would feel to write a great american novel
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egl2020 5 hours ago
This also works in drawing and painting. One of my painting teachers used to admonish us: "copy, copy, copy".
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wnmurphy 5 hours ago
This was my first thought as well. Hunter S. Thompson used to copy Hemingway by hand to internalize his cadence.
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tokai 6 hours ago
Pierre Menards Quixote is not a copy. It is a perfect recreation. While it is word-for-word identical to the original, the whole ironic humor of Borges text is that it is not a copy.
Edit: Which you might know well enough. Just wanted to add some more context.
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WaitWaitWha 5 hours ago
> When you recreate someone’s creation, you learn their story: every piece of brilliance, tradeoff, and imperfection.
I vehemently disagree that this happens. What you see is the end result, and thinking and struggling through for each element is not present. It is like copying the Mona Lisa and claiming the relationship with the sitting model and her smell and feel and complaints about cramped neck is all in the copied painting.
(Please do not change the cursor, specially the size. There is a reason I changed it.)
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xyzzy_plugh 5 hours ago
I agree. In fact, it's even worse: often times you
miss the tradeoffs.
With Software in particular, I often encounter designs that copy a pattern from another popular piece of software, but without critically thinking about what the pattern is for or if it's even appropriate for their system, or even worse, assuming that because it exists and is popular that it must be good, when in fact it's terrible.
If recreating someone else's creation truly learned us, I believe the world would be a tremendously better place.
I used to run a lunch study group where we took some old crusty load bearing software, read the documentation thoroughly, and then dissected it, reading source and comments and trying to distill what it achieved well separate from what it achieved in spite of itself.
We learned a lot.
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antonvs 2 hours ago
> I often encounter designs that copy a pattern from another popular piece of software, but without critically thinking about what the pattern is for or if it's even appropriate for their system, or even worse, assuming that because it exists and is popular that it must be good, when in fact it's terrible.
The very definition of "cargo cult" in a software context.
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cjcenizal 7 hours ago
My favorite quote that expresses this idea is from Mikhail Kalashnikov, designer of the AK-47: “Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good appreciation of everything that already exists in this field.”
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ecshafer 7 hours ago
A good example of why this is true I see in my bubble is in Indie tabletop RPGs. Fairly regularly if you follow indie rpg websites and forums, you get the following "I am sick of how Dungeons and Dragons does X so I made a new system". They will then proceed to describe Dungeons and Dragons but with some half-baked idea that is already done in some other game. So you might say "Hey this is already done in Traveller". But the people who have extremely little exposure to the field, and have only ever played one game (D&D typically) ends up re-exploring the field with "new ideas" that have existed for decades and have already been iterated upon.
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conartist6 6 hours ago
And then, if you are great, you will steal not from one thing but from everything
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euroderf 3 hours ago
This sounds like the manifesto of an Andy Warhol LLM.
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conartist6 2 hours ago
wE aRe aLl tHe aNdY wArHoL LlM
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worldthruword 5 hours ago
there is negative stealing or avoiding mistakes done by others. as propounded by Warren Buffet and others. and epitomized by philosophy of being less wrong.
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pseudosavant 3 hours ago
I've gone through my own cycle of this as a musician. Early in my music experience I was always obsessed with originality, and wouldn't learn a lot of existing pieces. At the stage I'm at now, I find great value in learning great songs and understanding why they work.
There is a lot of great work out there and if you are unwilling to be derivative in anyway, you'll intentionally avoid using and finding great things that others have discovered.
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RobRivera 2 hours ago
This is the way
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erikschoster 6 hours ago
In a marketplace, this is theft. (Which, given this example is of a website for a for-profit product, seems appropriate.) In a community it's tradition. Building on traditions in a community (aka great artists steal) is different than trying to get yours in a marketplace. Art and community traditions aren't a competition until they are dragged into the marketplace.
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rglover 4 hours ago
This isn't stealing in the "good artists copy, great artists steal" sense. This is just straight copying/plagiarism.
To "steal" effectively (in the Steve Jobs sense) means to pull details into your own work that are invisible to the naked eye. E.g., I'm going to "steal" the concept for DuckDB's new quack protocol as inspiration for handling a similar issue in my own embedded DB. It will exist as its own implementation/code, but the central idea or "aha" is what's "stolen."
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emaro 7 hours ago
I kind of agree in the sense that stealing a good idea and executing it well is a skill. Copying someones site "pixel by pixel" seems disrispectful though and I don't know what there's to be proud of.
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parliament32 3 hours ago
Given the CLAUDE.md, you slopped it, so yes, it was easy. Don't take this as combative but.. if anyone has a right to be proud, it's Anthropic, you just paid them to make this for you.
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jmercouris 6 hours ago
Why did you do this?
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sillysaurusx 5 hours ago
It was fun, and I like a challenge. I enjoy Lisp, and I retracing pg’s steps was gratifying.
Today most things are complex, and they don’t last very long. I wanted to pick apart something that’s lasted since the birth of the internet. Viaweb was, after all, the first web application.
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zimpenfish 5 hours ago
> Viaweb was, after all, the first web application.
According to pg who is an unreliable narrator at the best of times.
I'd say Navisoft[0] might be a better candidate.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaviSoft
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nusl 7 hours ago
In the age on LLMs it's definitely way easier than what you did.
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sillysaurusx 6 hours ago
No, it’s not. I used LLMs. It was still hard as fuck, and LLMs can’t actually help you when you’re trying to reproduce someone’s graphical design (specifically the pg buttons).
If you think it’s easy, or even possible without investing months, I invite you to try.
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libria 7 hours ago
Ask yourself why you feel that way, though. If I pixel-by-pixel copy discrete ideas from 20 different sites to build my own, that seems different, legit. Zero new code by me, I just stitched it together.
As we reduce 20, somehow that legitimacy erodes and at 1 it's "disrespectful". Where along that line was it wrong?
The "problem" we perceive is not stealing, it's stealing from only 1 place.
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kej 4 hours ago
The sorites paradox says that removing a grain of sand from a heap doesn't stop it from being a heap, and yet we can do that until we are left with a single grain of sand which is clearly not a heap.
Likewise, taking elements from many influences and combining them involves a lot of creative choices about which pieces to take from which influence while copying one thing exactly involves no creative choices and is just reusing someone else's effort. It's the difference between baking someone a cake or getting one from the store.
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iammjm 4 hours ago
Clearly the act of combining various elements into a coherent whole is the added value here. Like musicians which take various samples and sounds and combine them into something novel and harmonic
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carlosjobim 6 hours ago
I thought the same at first, but they are copying somebody's old and retired design, ie the other company doesn't use that design anymore.
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darepublic 6 hours ago
I remember working for a somewhat careless manager.. he just pointed at the chrome web dev store and said 'make it look like this'. I could have just copied everything wholesale but I actually handcrafted all the css, borrowing but generally using my own HTML structure, and js. The final result impressed even me. It made me feel.. if I worked on a team with real designers I could create something I would be proud of.
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dinkleberg 6 hours ago
The key is stealing from multiple sources. Grab 3+ different sites that you really love and extract the elements that really resonate from each and meld them together into your own synthesis. Copying wholesale and tweaking a couple of things is lame IMO. That being said, pixel-perfect copywork is a fantastic exercise for improving your design skills.
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deltamidway 7 hours ago
Stealing is a source of flattery. I've had logos I've designed outright copied. Jokes on them: They discovered they could not copyright the mark and had to rebrand (again).
Stealing is stealing unless you're really good at it.
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argee 2 hours ago
When 'Omer smote 'is bloomin' lyre,
He'd 'eard men sing by land an' sea;
An' what he thought 'e might require,
'E went an' took - the same as me!
The market-girls an' fishermen,
The shepherds an' the sailors, too,
They 'eard old songs turn up again,
But kep' it quiet - same as you!
They knew 'e stole; 'e knew they knowed.
They didn't tell, nor make a fuss,
But winked at 'Omer down the road,
An' 'e winked back - the same as us!
- Rudyard Kipling
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meander_water 7 hours ago
> However, it’s your job to go down the rabbit hole, learn the 100%, and sprinkle in your 3%.
I would say that there is a big difference between stealing without acknowledgement, and stealing with acknowledgement and actively learning through reverse engineering.
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sscaryterry 7 hours ago
Very, and really very few things, especially in software engineering is novel or new. Everything is the same old concepts, repackaged, tweaked, renamed. Cyclical in nature, fads come and go.
Stealing in this context might be tad harsh.
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graemep 7 hours ago
Does this level of copying not imply a copyright infringement?
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efilife 7 hours ago
Even if not, it's really, really distasteful
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graemep 5 hours ago
Proudly admitting it in public seems foolish on both grounds.
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ohitsdom 6 hours ago
Isn't this essentially what LLMs do?
Others have said it, but I'm not a fan of the cookie cutter approach. Build on UX patterns that work, but try new things too. It'll be hard to let your brand infuse the design when you're doing a line for line reproduction.
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NichoPaolucci 4 hours ago
When people finally offload 100% of their brain and forget how to use their creative reasoning abilities my guess is we’ll just all use Tailwind defaults across the board. No need to try new things, nobody will experiment because it’s so easy not to!
(Joking, mostly) but we did see this with Wordpress, Bootstrap, etc. the masses converge on simple web experiences because it’s pretty easy to get something that “just works”.
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lofaszvanitt 22 minutes ago
Lots of people who pretend to be ostriches. :DDD And the really, really sad thing is that they can't even steal proper things, they steal the shit. Just like when yters and tiktokkers copy every stupid thing from each other, without thinking about it for 3 seconds. Total decline.
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scaradim 6 hours ago
Stealing is indeed a skill... and a sin (target missed) - by experience not good for soul.
Knowing what laws in the countries where your business evolve allow someone to get inspired (as state of the art) or reuse freely from other's work in specific industry is a more valuable skill... and better for soul. One could move smarter and faster with light soul around if rules of the game are known and all opportunities are considered and not missed.
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m8ven 8 hours ago
Good artists copy, great artists steal?
Still hurts to be the one being stolen from though.
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Folcon 7 hours ago
I don't think this is the same kind of stealing?
If you're being a great artist who steals you may perfectly reproduce something, but in such a different and novel context that it feels fresh, or taking something verbatim and then modifying it with your work, vs say taking an series of ideas from a work and then not really changing or moving from what they were originally expressing
An example of this is from Offworld Trading Company[0], which literally started by copying the market from Age of Empires[1] and then iterated on it as well as the auction mechanics from MULE[2], I vaguely recall them talking about this in their GDC talk[3], though I could be misremembering that(it's a good talk though)
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure if anyone who was stolen from in those cases feels hurt by it
Compare that to stealing, where the parties stolen from were really quite angry at what was stolen, Triple Town vs Yeti Town[4], which very much looked like a lazy clone
-[0]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/271240/Offworld_Trading_C...
-[1]: https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Market_(Age_of_Empires_...
-[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.
-[3]: Offworld Trading Company: An RTS Without Guns
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2C4z_apu2I
-[4]: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/spry-fox-and-the-clone-wars
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zelias 5 hours ago
This game slapped
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omegastick 7 hours ago
I'm a big fan of that quote, but always took it differently than the meaning associated with this article.
Good artists see an idea and use it. Great artists see an idea and _make it their own_.
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lackoftactics 7 hours ago
there are only limited number of patterns for ui,ux, CTA. It sucks to be stolen from, but we build on top of each other most of the time
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nusl 7 hours ago
I think copying a website like this is very poor taste regardless. If I see you doing this, I immediately lose trust in your product and will immediately leave.
If you can't put the effort into the face of your product, how can I trust you to put effort into the product itself? Shitty behavior, with a shitty justification self-affirmation blogpost.
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wnmurphy 5 hours ago
I think the author's choice of words is framing the discussion. They did build their own website, but they loved the look of the one they saw, so I'd think a better choice would be "inspired by" rather than "stolen from."
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sdellis 6 hours ago
I agree. It's telling that they picked such a boring and generic design to steal.
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gobdovan 6 hours ago
Actual stealing is an even more impressive skill. Usually involves intensively trained sleight of hand, elaborate ruses, a very good understanding of theory of mind regarding the victim's attention, and planned deescalation paths in case you're caught.
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CM30 5 hours ago
while the article may be making the process sound more meaningful than it actually is, I think there's a definite benefit to learning by trying to copy others, then making tweaks as you go. Honestly, it can be quite interesting to code your own version of a tool you plan to use, then compare the code to the original to see how you both handled things differently. Or to just look at a random website/app/footage of the same and try to figure out how everything works there.
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efitz 5 hours ago
“Stealing is a skill” is catchy but doesn’t express the underlying concept as well as your other principles. I would suggest “learn by copying good things”, or “quality work is where you find it” or something to that effect.
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gizajob 3 hours ago
– when you get it wrong, people treat you with the contempt they reserve for a thief.
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michaelfm1211 6 hours ago
This feels wrong.
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InsideOutSanta 6 hours ago
Yeah, this is kinda crazy. This isn't stealing some ideas, their website is a printscreen of the original with some colors shifted. I doubt this is even legal.
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a3w 6 hours ago
Off-topic; but the nerd in me complained:
In GURPS, stealing is two skills: filch and pickpocket.
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z3t4 6 hours ago
What do you do if your version becomes immensely more popular and successful then the thing you copied? When people start calling you a genius.
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myaccountonhn 5 hours ago
Person learns the idea that being unethical pays of sometimes. And therefore, ethics don't matter.
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N_Lens 7 hours ago
The Tim Ferris school of thought. Can’t say I agree with it.
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sd9 5 hours ago
Good artists copy, great artists steal, plagiarists copy and paste CSS wholesale
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jdw64 5 hours ago
Good artists copy, great artists steal.
but this article doesn't seem to be about that.
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gaigalas 2 hours ago
> At the beginning of my career, I believed I’d be rewarded for the originality of my ideas. The truth is that you’re rewarded for identifying and solving problems efficiently.
The "I'll be original and get directly rewarded" vision is indeed naive.
However, sometimes you get to a point in which you design original ideas precisely so they will be stolen, and making that work for you is part of the design.
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nullbio 6 hours ago
Mintlify "stole" their latest design off Stripe. It's very obvious.
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PashaGo 6 hours ago
Most great products are nothing, but well-timed and well-executed stolen ideas.
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MCP123 6 hours ago
It's stealing when copyright is infringed and when the stealing part is not acknowledged. Otherwise, can we called it "inspired by"?
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__MatrixMan__ 6 hours ago
No, that's just copyright infringement. It's stealing when the stolen thing is no longer accessible to the previous owner.
Consensus differs on whether both, or just one, is morally objectionable. Conflating them is problematic.
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MCP123 6 hours ago
Agreed. Copying pixel by pixel feels wrong and also not very creative.
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a4isms 6 hours ago
There is something of a tradition in the design world to use theft-shaped words for things we collect for inspiration/ideas. A piece of advice I followed in the 80s and 90s when paper was still a thing was to have a "Swipe File," which was a collection of things you saw and liked, on paper.
In my own case as a designer of desktop apps, my Swipe File was not just digital screen shots of parts of apps that I admired, but I physically printed them out as well so I could spread them on a desk, floor, and walls when brainstorming.
That word "Swipe" also inspired the name of a design store catering to creative professionals in my home town, Toronto:
https://www.swipe.com/about
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9p 4 hours ago
Anything for a buck!
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michaelfm1211 6 hours ago
"Yes your honor, I copied it pixel-by-pixel."
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tamimio 3 hours ago
Technically, everything is stealing and everyone is stealing others work, you might use an open source software, might build your own but uses someone else’s libraries, might take someone’s UI design like OP, someone might use someone’s components, dig deeper and someone is using the icons to build components, dig deeper and someone’s is using a software with builtin tools trained to make similar icons to others, really, there’s no bottom to it. And if you decide to reinvent the whole wheel from the little details, you definitely will have so many bugs and issues, and most likely no one will likes it because it’s fundamentally different than how they are used to use XYZ.
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zuzululu 40 minutes ago
and this is why artists get up in arms about AI is because they know they are guilty of stealing and that all of their work is largely just inspirations upon inspirations and now they have to compete with AI
It reminds me of this old country song:
No idea's original, there's nothing new under the sun
It's never what you do, but how it's done
What you base your happiness around? Material, women, and large paper
That means you inferior, not major
No idea's original, there's nothing new under the sun
It's never what you do, but how it's done
What you base your happiness around? Material, women, and large paper
That means you inferior, not major
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IAmGraydon 2 hours ago
Don't do this. It's really a terrible idea. He's comparing Virgil Abloh being asked to create an evolution of the Air Force 1 and blatantly ripping off an already boring website (and in the same product category, no less). The two have nothing in common, obviously. You should build your own identity, and you do this by understanding your customers. If you want to create a boring copy of already existing work, well that's what we have LLMs for.
That said, we all take influence from the work of others who we admire. If you're going to steal, take the parts you like best from 10 different projects, improve every single one, and recombine them in a new way. That's how artists "steal".
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chasing 5 hours ago
Good artists copy. Great artists steal.
Plagiarists also steal.
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Rodmine 6 hours ago
OK, Benjamin.
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65 6 hours ago
This is copying, not stealing. Stealing means taking someone else's ideas, not their final output.
Copying creates trends, where everything looks and feels the same. Stealing an idea and creating something of your own, AKA remixing, is a much more valuable skill.
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mannanj 6 hours ago
I looked up stealing to ground this comment of mine:
> stealing: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice
I admire Ben for being so direct. I wonder why we fetishize, herbicide and normalize theft, even deception today. When did this become normal, and why draw the line at digital creation and not just allow theft of physical objects, too? (I mean I get the arguments about copying someones digital creation doesn't really mean you took what they had from them, you just made a copy, though this doesn't logically apply to if I also physically stole someones product and made a copy since copyright/patent protection likely applies)
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anonyfox 6 hours ago
the very point is that theft means you no longer have something since someone else has. copying is you still have it and someone else now too. there is no harm done by copying, except you actually believe that exclusivity as a separate concept is important to you. (debatable, I don't).
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sokoloff 6 hours ago
> fetishize, herbicide and normalize
I’m very curious what “herbicide” was an auto-complete for here…
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Noumenon72 6 hours ago
ChatGPT guesses "heroicize".