I find this is a key feature. If a file is edited, git shows it as dirty, and I get to decide if I discard of commit the change. No extra steps required.
> By the time Homebrew and a couple of tools have run on a new Mac, files like ~/.zprofile and ~/.gitconfig already exist.
I don't get why you'd manually provision those files instead of just putting them in dotfiles.
---
Personally, I found that most tools in this space tried to do too much or were too complex. I previously wrote a minimal one in Rust, but eventually re-wrote it into less than 200 lines of shell, which works pretty much anywhere, without having to install anything at all, and is part of the dotfiles repository itself:
https://git.sr.ht/~whynothugo/dotfiles/tree/ac97cb196f02cafa...
I end up with the same issue as OP: months and months later I'll pop into ~/.dotfiles (where I keep the git repo), and see the tree is dirty, with all these random changes I've made that I don't really remember all that well.
The difference for me vs. the OP is that I consider it a minor inconvenience, spend a few minutes cleaning up and committing, and go about my day. It also helps that I'm pretty much a single-machine guy. I have the dotfiles on random server-like machines in my house, but I basically never edit them on those machines; all edits happen on my laptop, so I never have a problem with conflicts. I could definitely see how this could get annoying for people who edit their dotfiles on several different machines.
It’s for things like dotfiles, apt/brew packages, and LaunchAgents/systemd.
EDIT: I feel a little bad having hijacked this, as someone that hears a lot of opinions about devtools I can definitely say chezmoi is a darling of the community and I highly recommend checking it out.
Being able to centralize this config is far more attractive than having a separate Ansible or pyinfra process.
Edit: The docs on this are very encouraging! However, it is not clear- what is experimental? Anything notably buggy or churning? Any far off features you hope to implement some day?
I’d argue it’s a good time to play with features since if you have any ideas on how it might better fit your workflow I still have the ability to change the design before it’s largely frozen.
Hopefully can use this alone instead of needing to combine w/ chezmoi / nix to get everything shell and pkg manager agnostic, consistent, and DRY (bash/zsh/fish + macports/pkgsrc/brew).
The "exception" to that are linux package managers like apt-get and dnf which it calls under the hood. I think can't be an actual issue since it's not like you would ever use ubuntu/redhat without their system package manager installed.
Some months ago I ported part of my git bare repo to chezmoi but never really picked it up since, even if I see it as a great and very complete tool for managing complex dotfiles, I don't have many machines and can live by with a bunch of if uname -s, and the fact that I still need to wrangle brewfiles and scripts for packages. Having the sytem package managers glue along the configs and symlinks is exactly what I wanted.
Perfect timing, I'm already 80% done with the transition :D
Thanks so much for your work on mise! I used to be a heavy asdf user but nowadays I'm an even heavier mise user!
Random question while you're here: mise is undergoing pretty heavy development these days and I recently noticed that 1) my coworkers and I are not always on the same version, so some features/bug fixes are not available to everyone, and 2) package registries often don't have the latest mise version.
So I think we need a meta tool manager here to manage the tool manager version. :) Seriously, though, have you considered having mise manage its own version? I think that'd be pretty neat!
Thinking aloud, I guess one way to do this might be to distribute through package registries only a lightweight bootstrap application, which 1) reads the pinned mise version from mise.toml and downloads it as necessary, and 2) sets up a basic shell hook that the active mise version can then hook into(?) I know, this probably sounds a lot easier than it actually is.
I would make use of min_version. It's not perfect, but will at least help bring laggards along.
I think Chezmoi's templates and file naming conventions don't click for me, but it's nice to see a good variety in this problem space.
One major benefit for me is that I no longer need to have once-in-a-while tools installed, because I can always spin up a temporary shell with `nix-shell -p packageName`. This significantly decreased the amount of software I have in my environment.
This works great with agentic coding. Agent wants to run `ripgrep`, but you don't have it? Tell it to run `nix run nixpkgs#ripgrep` instead.
But the biggest benefit is that now that you know Nix! So you can start using it to create reproducible development environments and uninstall mise, asdf, nvm, pyenv, etc. You can spin up reproducible servers running NixOS and never touch Ansible again. You can even install it in your router.
Or you can do none of that and continue just using it for your dotfiles. It plays nice with other tools.
About 6 weeks ago I installed NixOS on a spare laptop and did 100% of the configuration through Claude Codex. Initially I copied "/etc/nixos" off to my existing workstation, until Claude Code bootstrapped it enough to run on the NixOS machine.
I've been running it as my primary workstation for the last 3-4 weeks, and it's been great! 100% configured by Claude Code or Codex CLI.
Configuring a machine via Nix lang is not that fun. Configuring a machine via English is.
And I've thrown some curveballs at this setup. I asked it for gitbutler-cli, which NixOS doesn't/didn't provide, and it was able to package up and build it. It's running Sway. I have my secrets and configs in SOPS+Home Manager.
That's the great thing about nix, it should actually compile LESS than other distros, because, you can have multiple versions of the same lib on the same machine. You just create another version of the package and only patch the packages that need it. You don't even have this option on other distros. Name one other distro that lets you run multiple versions of glibc natively (not containers or flatpaks or whatever).
The package dependencies aren't based on whether what's packaged is a linked library, and built packages are linked to the dependencies by the digests. The digest of a package is made from the store derivation which contains the digests of the dependencies. Or does the digest of a package not depend on the digests of its dependencies anymore?
Because if they do, then on changing any minor thing, like a typo on a manpage, it would cause the change to cascade by changing the digests of its own package and its dependants recursively. Meaning, none would be found prebuilt and would need to be recompiled.
EDIT: s/hashes/digests/ because that's what appears to be the conventional name for the base32 strings used to identify an entry in /nix/store. The site has changed a lot in the last decade, but I do see this in the thesis that confirms what I remembered:
> The store derivation in /nix/store/1ja1w63wbk5q...-hello-2.1.1.drv is shown in Figure 2.13. It lists all information necessary to build the component, with references to the store derivations of dependencies [...] The output field specifies the path that will be built by this derivation, if and when it is built. It is computed essentially by hashing the store derivation with the output field cleared. --- https://edolstra.github.io/pubs/phd-thesis.pdf
EDIT 2:
> I modify udev rules and the system rebuilds in seconds.
Maybe there's a beaten path for udev rules, a way to override them without modifying the package / store derivation. Or maybe the derivations you're modifying don't have many dependants.
I mean, generally when you patch things, you want all dependents to use the patched version. It's just irksome that you know the change you made strictly speaking doesn't need a rebuild of dependents, but nix will still require it in the interest of ensuring reproducibility. Just wish there were an established expert-mode I-know-this-may-break-things way to have a modified derivation act as a drop-in replacement of a particular package/digest.
For example, it would be neat to have derivation foo.nix, from which the digest is calculated. Then, have the system check for a mod/foo.nix or similar path which would be a function that can modify the derivation without having the digest be recalculated on the result. Or maybe this could be done by having a function calcDigest, which sets the digest of a derivation and the system can simply not set the field when it's already been set. This to allow further changes while being treated as if changes haven't been made.
And in return one gets a saner programming language than the Nix language.
I like mise, but at the end of the day some programs are more complex than just pulling a precompiled, dynamically linked binary and hoping it works.
I thought it was the former but "just pulling a precompiled, dynamically linked binary and hoping it works" makes me think we're not on the same page since to me that has nothing to do with dotfiles.
Also noting that I don't see the problem as "dotfile management" but as "system AND user configuration management" which extends beyond some plain text files in $HOME.
ed.: and home manager is just one tool which provides not only dotfile management, but drvs for installing particular programs and configuring then in highly opinionated ways -- I do not use it
This is a serious problem in Nix too. I often trip over buggy and abandoned Nix packages. Nix often makes it easy to roll back or work around them, but they're absolutely there.
Are you really in this thread to talk about dotfile managers, or are you here to criticize Nix, given that Nix directly competes with your company's only product?
tfrancisl was polite (even though I arguably wasn’t in the beginning) so I felt it important to return the favor.
It's also a massive pain the ass to work with
* Permission management, so that ssh wouldn't refuse to log you in because ~/.ssh/authorized_keys is 0755 instead of 0644.
* Templating, because ~/.ssh/config has slightly different options on Mac and Linux, so you can't use the exact same file contents as-is on both systems.
I can run `chezmoi apply` and get all the files in the right places and they're all setup just right. Like so many others, I'd previously built my own ad-hoc system to handle these things, and it ended up looking like a crappy, half-baked version of Chezmoi. When it came up on my radar I immediately ported my own system over to it and never looked back.
My ssh config has actual domain names of servers I don't want to publish to the whole internet so that file is encrypted on my public github dotfiles repo.
Chezmoi automatically decrypts it on `chezmoi update` and I don't need to think about it much unless I'm editing it.
For a System administrator the problem is many orders of magnitude worse
I don't understand what makes it more understandable than Home Manager, though.
If you look at the source of a Home Manager `programs.foo` module, it should look mostly like this:
home.packages = [ cfg.package ];
xdg.configFile."foo/config.yaml".source = yamlFormat.generate "config.yaml" cfg.settings;
With some programs it is as simple as you show, but with others there are options around the config and other nix module nasties that I avoid if I can. hjem-rum is a sister project to hjem that provides some similar modules.
Thanks for the recommendation.
I've been using (and contributing to) chezmoi for ~6 years now. Given that it has first-class integration with secrets managers, I suspect that it does things that Home Manager can't.
I did too. Until I tried configuring it with Claude Code. I'll give you my money back guarantee on it.
Meow?
The chezmoi integration with 1Password is excellent; for those who prefer Bitwarden, it supports both the default CLI (which has some inexcusable behaviours for a security product, IMO) and `rbw` (which is infinitely better than the default CLI). It supports `pass`, `gopass`, `passage`, AWS Secrets Manager, KeePass, and several other approaches.
It was the work of a couple of minutes to enable a secret for a Claude Code API token to be mounted in a VM where I'm running Claude for a project where the value is pulled from 1Password and I can regenerate it and reapply without fear.
If one doesn't have to worry about secrets in one's dotfiles, I'm sure that other dotfile managers including Nix with Home Manager will suffice. I do, so they won't.
Ultimately, my workplace setup is what has the most gravity. And the most I can get most workplaces to standardize on is Homebrew for package management of off-the-shelf software. Nix is so far outside of the wheelhouse for most engineers that I can't even propose it. It would be too much of a distraction for too many people for too long that it's just not seen as worth it and it's not worth spending the political capital on the attempt. Employers would literally prefer to run scripts from a whitewashing, barely-auditable Jenkins instance with parameterized jobs than to attempt to figure out how to distribute portable scripts and get everyone's permissions working.
So I need to pick software that will cooperate with other tools in an unstable fashion, rather than software that attempts to fully and exclusively control the environment to provide guarantees. Chezmoi fits. Nix and home-manager do not.
You can run Nix and Home Manager on macOS or any Linux distro. You don't even need root.
It works exactly like you describe: it provides its guarantees for all software that you manage through Nix, and doesn't get in the way of software that you don't manage through Nix.
Unlike with NixOS, you can run binaries that expect an FHS-compliant system just fine.
You can just silently use it and enjoy the convenience for the declarative parts of your setup, with no detriment to your ability to run the imperative, ad-hoc setup scripts that your company requires.
That's the kicker though. Nix's benefits come from the guarantees it can make based on its integration with the rest of the Nix-controlled ecosystem. Without the control, you don't get the guarantees, and you lose the raison d'être. You need to actively avoid the "value-added" parts (e.g. package options) because latest Homebrew upstream may give you a version that exposes an option that is not yet exposed by the package options, and you can't patch the package with Nix because you're not using a Nix-based package.
Chezmoi is declarative. The templates give me generated configuration. I can rollback anytime I want by reverting Git commits and calling chezmoi apply. It works well within its less-ambitious goals (compared to Nix).
But you also don’t get them at all with Chezmoi, right?
Surely having these guarantees for some packages beats having it for none? In practice _most_ packages you’ll want to use are already in Nixpkgs, and kept up to date.
> You need to actively avoid the "value-added" parts (e.g. package options) because latest Homebrew upstream may give you a version that exposes an option that is not yet exposed by the package options, and you can't patch the package with Nix because you're not using a Nix-based package.
You mean build-time options?
You can usually override the version number/URL in your own configuration to get the new version earlier. But new versions land in nixpkgs-unstable with about the same cadence as Homebrew anyway.
Same thing with runtime options. Want `programs.foo.enableNewThing` but it’s not in HM yet? You can just define that option in your own configuration, no need to stop using the value-added module nor wait for HM.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Once you have Nix on your system, it infects everything. You want to let it control everything, because that is where its power is. Your life would be so much easier if you could let it control even more, like the stuff you share with your team. It's the siren call. And then you find yourself pitching it to your team, and then you inevitably fail to pitch it, because you ramped up to it over months and it's just impossible to get anybody else ramped up to Nix that quickly.
It's guaranteed heartbreak every time and I got sick of it.
You could always, you know, not do this. Your heart will be intact.
I like that when combined with `mise` (https://mise.jdx.dev) I can roll out a new computer in 2-3 commands and have my entire environment configured the way I like, with neovim and all the plugins and language servers.
Eventually, I wrote my own bidirectional sync tool that synchronizes a git checkout (for example, ~/.dotfiles) with the actual home directory. I run it as a systemd service, so I can simply edit or delete files in ~/.dotfiles, and everything else happens automatically.
I can add or remove files in the repository, and they will automatically be created or removed in their synchronized locations. At the same time, the target directories can contain other unrelated files, including an entire $HOME, and this does not interfere with synchronization in any way.
The bidirectional sync is particularly useful when a program, such as vs code, decides to modify its own configuration files, or when I'm feeling lazy and just want to edit ~/.bashrc directly and commit the changes later.
Achieving this requires some careful logic that, hopefully, I've managed to get right. At least at the time I wrote it, I hadn't seen these implemented in other systems.
Oh, and I use the same sync for some files I need to /etc, only for that I run sudo scripts and dont' have a always-on service for obvious reasons.
I'd be happy if someone else found it useful too: https://github.com/senotrusov/etcdotica
Pretty snazzy, watching YouTube in Firefox on a 13 year old laptop with hardware h264 decode and everything tuned exactly to my liking.
Chez moi is definitely not without its rough edges but it seems to have gotten the subtle essentials right enough for adhd me to not have abandoned it yet.
`make dotfiles` just creates a bunch of symlinks, takes 5 minutes, all good and happy. Everything is modular, declarative, simple. Never looked back.
There's roughly two main ways to manage dotfiles:
- symlink
- copy & sync
The 2nd (what chez moi does) is pretty hard to get right from a UX perspective.
That way I don't have to remember to commit+push+pull changes to existing dotfiles (like bashrc or vimrc which I edit often) to sync them to other machines, it happens automatically in almost real time as soon as the file is saved on one of my machines (syncthing uses inotify to detect changes on monitored directories)
I have stow too in my micro DE, use it across a few machines and it's holding up really well. I designed my dotfiles so that changes would happens exclusively to files not tracked by stow. I have .zshrc tracked, but environment goes to .zshenv and general local customisation goes to .local/lib/zsh/overrides.zsh (https://gitlab.com/gabriel.chamon/archie/-/blob/main/deploym...). Hyprland config is tracked but device specific configs live in .config/hype/config/device.conf (https://gitlab.com/gabriel.chamon/archie/-/blob/main/deploym...). Deployment instructions/automation is to just copy dist folders in place, which aren't tracked by stow.
It depends on everyone's style. For me personally changes I don't remember having made to files I track in the repo are symptoms that I might need to review how I organize my files. Maybe those changes were something that broke and I forgot to commit after fixing. In any case for me this bidirectional nature of symlinks are a feature, not a bug in this management system.
I don't really recommend it to others, since there's all these great tools that have the features you need (per-machine config, secrets, templating), but I get a deep satisfaction from the fact that I understand every part of this setup from top to bottom. It only has the functionality I need, and I know it doesn't depend on anything that might become unmaintained since it's just POSIX shell scripts.
Even still, I might eventually make the jump to something like chezmoi or nix if I'm not able to implement something I need easily, but that hasn't happened yet.
I thought about using any one of those tools but happily chose shell scripts and symlinks instead. It hasn't let me down in almost a decade with https://github.com/nickjj/dotfriedrice and would highly recommend this approach.
It's basically a 2,500 line shell script to fully automate setting up a system from scratch in a general purpose / opinionated but customizable way that works on Arch Linux, Debian, Ubuntu, macOS and supports WSL 2 in Windows. I have it running on multiple systems, no need to even fork it since it uses patterns suitable for making changes in git ignored files and also has a config file for certain things.
When it comes to setting up a complete desktop environment or even just terminal based tools, dotfiles IMO are more than config files. There's install scripts, packages, system level configs, running commands, OS specific differences and more. It's really nice to be able to run 1 command and have a fresh system ready to go in about 10 minutes.
Shell script is probably my favorite language at this point.
But, for the people who value the "toolbench" of their craft, investing in it over time, and having it grow with them long-term, I will absolutely proselytize the reasons I've stayed with my custom-built setup. You're clearly one of those people, thanks for sharing. :)
The last few years I've rarely had to switch machines, so maybe chezmoi is overkill now, but it works well, so I'm in no rush to simplify again just for the sake of it (and who knows if I'll need chezmoi's features for real again in the future).
Vs. the chezmoi way of keeping everything common except using templates for diverging files.
I treat my powerful desktop computer as my main machine. Then I have a bunch of laptops.
Then I just rsync my entire home directory out to all the laptops.
From there. The rule is quite simple. Any file created on a laptop are considered ephemeral. If I create data that I have to keep. It gets rsynced back the other direction to the main machine.
This process has served me well for at least 15 years now and is supported by a small handful of shell scripts to automate this process
> This process has served me well for at least 15 years now and is supported by a small handful of shell scripts to automate this process
I feel in a similar way but not with shell scripts. Ruby autogenerates them if I need them too. Ruby is my ultimate glue to hold together everything.
> rsync my entire home directory out to all the laptops
Now I want to use Nix* to manage my multi-machine MacOS and Linux setup (with lots of dotfile config overlap, of course).
That’s the HN experience for you.
Kind souls: what is currently the blessed way to manage MacOS dots with Nix? I recall there is more than one paradigm - what’s the approach that simplest, most robust and can be adopted incrementally?
Edit: Just to say that I think Atuin now also plays in this space. Haven’t checked it out, though.
Now it should be "every app adds features until it manages dotfiles" :D
Dunno why I'd use atuin for dotfile management, but some people seem to like it. It's very good at syncing and managing shell history though.
You can make forks or branches. Perfect for separating your work specific or private configs
You can use a filter like https://github.com/darkfeline/qualia-go
You can use a shell script (stored in the same git repo). You need you run an external tool with dotfile managers anyway, a shell script gives you more flexibility and doesn't need an extra dependency which might break at an inopportune time. The last thing you need is your dotfile manager breaking when you're setting up a new machine (ask me how I know)
# fish
if set -q TERM_PROGRAM # mac os
...
else if test "$COLORTERM" = "kmscon"
...
else # tron leotards
...
end
# bash
if test "$WAYLAND_DISPLAY" == ""; then
echo X11
else
echo Found Wayland
fi
if test -e /etc/fedora-release; then
echo ...
else
# Debian
fistow is an indispensable tool for me to manage /usr/local for manually installed software. my workflow goes:
./configure --prefix=/usr/local/stow/myapp
make && make install
stow myapp
stow -D myapp module load myapp
module unload myapp
[1]: https://modules.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ [2]: https://lmod.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
This one is good, though, and very thorough—even though it's Mac-centric.
Does Chezmoi have a better solution for that? Or is there a better way using Stow?
Yadm is another alternative, the main thing I don't like about it though is that I'm not a fan of cross OS dotfiles. Having niri files on my work Mac and aerospace dotfiles on Linux annoys me quite a bit.
As powerful as the templating in chezmoi is, I think it should be considered a last resort and only used for simple files. They break your editor features like highlighting.
> Having niri files on my work Mac and aerospace dotfiles on Linux annoys me quite a bit
> They break your editor features like highlighting
https://github.com/dloomorg/dloom
Short blogpost for the TLDR: https://swaranga.dev/posts/dloom-the-dotfile-manager-i-wante...
My configuration lives primarily in .yml files. These are kept super-simple. When need be and another format is required, ruby autogenerates these for me. For instance, all my bash aliases are kept in .yml files which then get turned into bash rc files or any other target format for other shells. Same for most of my other configuration too - not always .yml but usually some text file. I never understood the neet for .foobar directories or files. They just hide a system that is intrinsically ugly and needlessly complicated.
;)