thot_experiment 5 days ago
US support for Israel is one of the most horrible things imaginable, really makes me ashamed. It is only the US standing between the current horrendous status quo and Israel being an true international pariah state. Hopefully we cut off support and usher in a find out era.
thot_experiment 5 days ago
(Though to be honest my position is probably that we need to go past cutting off support and US tax dollars should go toward reparations for Palesine, Lebanon and probably Iran and others, we are complicit in a lot of fucked shit.)

((I don't think those places are lead by great individuals and everything is amazing to be clear, I also think the people there have suffered immensely from a century of american, british and israeli meddling and we should be held accountable))

suburban_strike 4 days ago
This is "let's you and him fight" logic.

We've already given Israel almost $400 billion. Subrogate them for Palestinian reparations instead of billing everything to us like a teenage girl let loose at the mall with Daddy's credit card.

bryanlarsen 4 days ago
US support for Netanyahu is one of the most horrible things imaginable. US support for a non-Netanyahu Israel may not be so much. The distinction is important, at the very least so people don't call you an anti-Semite. But even without that, I think it's important. I'm anti-Trump, anti-Netanyahu, anti-Hamas, and anti-IRGC, but not anti-US, anti-Israel, anti-Palestine or anti-Iran. The citizens of those countries are the victims of their leaders.
thot_experiment 4 days ago
I said what I said; israel is the problem, I have no significant beef with Judaism (no more than any religion and less than some).

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extremes-of-israe...

TitaRusell 4 days ago
The first woman doctor in the Netherlands was Jewish.

Ofcourse nowadays Dutch/European Jewish culture is utterly despised by Israelis because it was secular and liberal.

micik 3 days ago
I recommend you read the book World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig.

The experience of the world Jewry in (pre-)WW2 continental Europe was so shockingly brutal, the establishment of the state of Israel was an inevitability.

Jews were the scapegoat driven out from cities into the desert to amend for other's sins for millenia. Some would say they've gotten used to it.

The bestial conduct of Nazis was such that even the people for whom the experience of persecution was a fact of life and indeed their toleration of the condition almost stoic in nature, came to realize they had to have a place where they are not the Other and won't be scapegoated again. And so it happened.

To paint a picture with words...Stefan Zweig, model intellectual and model European, ended his life in 1942 at age 61 in Brazil, having lost his home of 20 years in Salzburg, his beloved Europe and, in his own words, a large part of himself.

The worst exponents of Europe in Nazi uniforms and their collaborators, the "decent people" of Germany, Austria and other countries, killed the best exponents of Europe and Europeanism, over insane paranoiac deluded hate. Killed them slowly, then quickly. Indirectly, by stripping them of everything they considered theirs, then very directly in extermination facilities. The people who suffered this horror established a state and Europe lost intelligentsia and human capital it could not afford to lose. Fin.

Just five years ago, saying that the state of Israel is the problem would have you branded an anti-semite and driven out of polite society and rightly so. As a non-Jew with no skin in the game, I find the reawakening of these sentiments horrifying.

guzfip 3 days ago
> Just five years ago, saying that the state of Israel is the problem would have you branded an anti-semite and driven out of polite society and rightly so. As a non-Jew, I find the reawakening of these sentiments horrifying.

Yes, but society is no longer polite. I hope the memes were worth it.

22122 3 days ago
this just isn't true, jews didn't have it any worse than non jews in european history, they just like to dwell on their historical instances of suffering. One could argue that jews had it better than the native peoples around them because their population swelled at a higher rate over the duration of their stay, and historically, population growth tracked resource availability.
suburban_strike 3 days ago
What you describe is known as the "lachrymose" framing of their historiography.
thot_experiment 3 days ago
> To paint a picture with words...Stefan Zweig, model intellectual and model European, ended his life in 1942 at age 61 in Brazil, having lost his home of 20 years in Salzburg, his beloved Europe and, in his own words, a large part of himself.

LMFAO do you understand how incredibly VILE it is to say this in this context?

fud101 3 days ago
This is some tired fanfiction no one asked for. But please, keep ringing the bell of victimhood, it's surely going to be well received this time.
antinomicus 4 days ago
Claiming that Israel is entirely a Netanyahu problem is ridiculous. No Netanyahu and what do you have left? An apartheid state, probably run by any number of awful replacements, like ben gvir or smotrich. Israel was founded in the shadow of the Nakba - they displaced million people and killed something like 15,000. That was only right when it was founded too. Post 1967, Israel ceased to have any left wing politics, and dove head first into their genocidal project, they’ve been doing it ever since. This is not antisemitic. I don’t care about religion and I’m not a baboon - I don’t care what you believe, I care what you do. And Israel has done, since the beginning, very bad stuff.
bryanlarsen 4 days ago
I deliberately used the phrase "Netanyahu's Israel". The problem is much more than Netanyahu, it's the Israel Netanyahu epitomizes whether or not it got there via Netanyahu or other similar routes. Given that Netanyahu was legitimately elected, there are lots of similar routes.
22122 3 days ago
the early zionists had a similar attitude towards arabs as netanyahu and co do today. but for them it was more from a jewish power colonialist angle rather than the victimhood angle that netanyahu is obsessed with
firefoxd 5 days ago
The language in the article would be fascinating if it wasn't such a horrible thing.

It's not that the Israeli soldiers are sexually assaulting Palestinians, instead they are using Sexual Assault.

Later they say "Sexualised violence is used...", "men and boys were Targeted..."

It's like there is a gun shooting people, or someone using a gun. But we can't connect fully understand how or who is perpetuating it.

Edit: some more:

"Israeli soldiers present during abuse had repeatedly failed to prevent it..." Who was abusing?

fwipsy 5 days ago
I don't think the passive voice is meant to protect the perpetrators. Instead, they are presenting sexual assault as a deliberate tactic or policy, or at least a common pattern. If true, this is a much bigger story than isolated incidents of violence. But sixteen reported cases over three years seems very low. Likely there are more cases they missed. Mainly it seems like they have very little data.
datsci_est_2015 4 days ago
As the sibling comments point out, in isolation your argument would be reasonable, but within the context of the decades-long conflict, and English-language media in general, passive voice is very much used to soften the blow of damning reports against figures of authority and other privileged peoples.
sillystuff 5 days ago
The passive voice and dishonest language is often used by British and US corporate and state media when describing atrocities committed by Israeli Jews.

"Some Palestinians are dead." Implying, "They seem to have just died. Nobody knows what happened." To describe the countless massacres of Palestinians by Israeli Jews

E.g., the BBC reported an IDF soldier, in uniform, who was captured as a prisoner of war as, "A young girl was kidnapped by Hammas." The BBC also reported on an 8 year old little girl who was kidnapped by the IDF and held as a hostage as, "a woman who was detained."

The BBC is still at it with the Israel-US illegal war of aggression against Iran. They reported that "180 people died" in the triple-tap strike on the school that murdered 165 young children, mostly little girls. The BBC also did not mention that it was a triple-tap strike where subsequent strikes killed rescue workers, parents coming to find their children, and 10s of children who had survived the first strike.

The UK (and Germany) are as bad as the US for media and government controlled by Zionists.

Hikikomori 4 days ago
See it in EU news as well. They're essentially free PR for IDF.
appreciatorBus 5 days ago
More likely, they already knew what they wanted to say, data or no data: Israel/US, bad: global revolution, good. They have to keep the pressure up so they need to write papers and get articles written about those papers and then get them posted on hacker news regardless of what actually happened. It’s a constant grind, but I suppose it will all be worth it for them if they get appointed on the committee of the vanguard or something like that.
Tostino 3 days ago
So you don't view the genocide that's happening right now as bad? Or the US support for it? Noted.
insane_dreamer 4 days ago
Most likely the settlers. If you start researching the violence by settlers in the West Bank and what they do to try to push out Palestinians and grab more of their land, it's horrifying. And the settlers are not your average Israeli -- they are the most hard-core Zionist Israelis (many of them foreigners)--that's explicitly why they are there in the first place. The pattern has been repeating for decades: Israeli army occupies some land in the WB, gives the land for free plus subsidized living to hardline Zionists who are armed and willing and able to defend and hold the land. Those people abuse the neighboring Palestinians to drive them away, and the now "empty" land can be occupied, the illegal settlement expanded, bring in more people. Rinse and repeat. Even though the settlements have been declared illegal over and over again by the UN and even previous US governments, Israel just ignores all of that. As long as there are "talks" going on, it can continue to slowly gobble up the WB and push the Palestinians into Jordan or an ever shrinking piece of land, just like Gaza.
woggy 5 days ago
Look up the article in Ha'aretz recently "IDF Soldiers Talk About the 'Moral Injury' – and the Silence" for another example of this. I mean, I am glad they are talking about it, but the way it is framed is maddening.
culi 5 days ago
The settlers. They are there illegally and do illegal things but the soldiers are there to provide them with functional immunity
sillystuff 5 days ago
> Who was abusing?

Israeli Jews. Both IDF soldiers and civilians.

Rape was always a weapon by the Israeli Jews. Remember that every accusation made by the Israeli Jews is an admission.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/report-of-the-commission...

Israeli Jews recently got out into the streets to protest for the right to rape, after some soldiers were prosecuted for a recorded rape of a Palestinian prisoner where a long knife blade was inserted into body orifices during the rape. The whisleblower was condemned while the rapists were celebrated.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/israelis-rio...

throw_a_grenade 5 days ago
> Who was abusing?

It's possible that in some cases it was settlers. So technically not soldiers. But soldiers protected them, incl. from any resisting abuse.

ojbyrne 5 days ago
The article starts with “Israeli soldiers and settlers” so presumably the answer to your question is settlers.
culi 5 days ago
Nothing to say. Just absolutely maddening that this is what my taxes go to accomplish
camgunz 4 days ago
This is absurdly one-sided. The "report" is just a summary of internet articles, two of which are from The Guardian itself, which makes this some weird content laundering situation. It also--obviously on purpose--leaves out IDF's response to the incident at Wadi-as-Seeq: "'After the initial investigation, a decision was made to dismiss the commander of the unit that carried out the arrest. Due to the seriousness of the suspicions, it was decided to open a Military Police investigation,' the army said." Sounds like that guy is in deep shit!

I'm so tired of this garbage. The Guardian had to have read this Times of Israel article because the details it reports (ex: the date) aren't included in the report, but they leave out the part where the commander is under investigation by the Military Police? What a joke.

sethammons 5 days ago
Sexual assault and violence is the biblical explanation for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah according to more and more modern biblical scholars. The Christian's who hate the gays should instead direct their bible and politicians at Israeli soldiers and their government.
suburban_strike 3 days ago
Don't trust Christians to interpret Jewish literature. They're still struggling with the "immaculate conception" of the "virgin" Mary. This was common enough that the rabbis weighed in and set the precedent for "technical virginity" (anal) that was later attributed to Catholics.

The residents of Sodom were directly offered Lot's virgin daughters, and they politely declined, preferring to sodomize the angels Lot was harboring. God glassed both cities because the city was full of degenerates that held nothing sacred.

Lot's daughters both raped him immediately after fleeing the city and nobody had anything to say about it, so rape cannot possibly be the offense the Sodomites were punished for.

datsci_est_2015 4 days ago
The reality that war goes hand-in-hand with sexual violence is rarely fairly portrayed in American / Hollywood media. It sickens me when I see warhounds in our government who are, by extension of campaigning for war, rooting for sexual violence against entire populations - though they might not realize it through their ignorance.

That’s why I appreciate anti-war cinema, like Come and See, which notoriously came from Belarusian screenwriters.

kennykartman 4 days ago
Yep, war is the shittiest of things and rarely it is described completely for what it is. Humans following orders are well known to be ruthless and humans in power places are known to abuse their power. Add this to brainwashing and religious propaganda and beliefs, makes this kind of war a particularly shitty one.
woggy 5 days ago
If only hell was real.
Balgair 4 days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUeBMwn_eYc

"War isn't Hell. War is war and Hell is hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse"

"How do you figure that Hawkeye?"

"Easy Father, tell me, who goes to Hell?"

"Hmm, sinners, I believe"

"Exactly, there are no innocent bystanders in Hell. But war is shot full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for a few of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander"

Iridescent_ 5 days ago
Well it sure must seem real for Palestinians. And it's just called life on Earth.
datsci_est_2015 4 days ago
I’m a fan of media that conveys the message that hell is real and it’s what we manufacture as humans, like 28 Years Later: The Bone Temple. In fact, the broad theme of the 28 * Later series is that even with the most hellish events unfolding, humans are still capable of being depraved to the limits of our imagination.
gostsamo 5 days ago
The christian supporters of Israel can also think a bit about the itf soldiers destroying a statue of Jesus in Lebanon if they want to understand what they are supporting. Useful idiots doesn't even start to describe it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpd575n1znzo

siliconpotato 5 days ago
Maybe they were carrying out exodus 20:4...

It's ironic that netanyahu says that Christians are thriving in Israel and more than any other middle Eastern country. Only 2% of Israel identifies as Christian, whereas Lebanon has 37%, which Israel is bombing

watwut 4 days ago
I kinda feel like from all the things going on ... breaking statue is the least of the things. Like, who cares.
gostsamo 4 days ago
The evangelists in the US support Israel imagining that there is a special relationship between christians and jews. Many jews in Israel seem to find this useful and try not to contradict them while remaining hateful fanatics at heart. Stories like this one show a glimps at what is going on and therefore are worth pointing out when surfacing. They frame the murders, and sexual assaults, and destruction as the ethnic cleansing fueled by greed and hate toward anyone else that it is.
jalapenoj 4 days ago
And Iraq used to have Christians before the pointless wars for israel, now it doesn’t.
omnimus 5 days ago
Anything for Second Coming of Jesus
proshno 4 days ago
This is not something new. israel has been doing this since Nakba and it’s well recorded even by the israeli historians and academics around the world. Their atrocities against humanity were just not allowed to be exposed by the Epstein class.

Here are some more studies and reports on this topic, in case anyone interested to know the extent of israeli sexual violence against Palestinians:

1. https://israelpalestinenews.org/israeli-torture-core-element... “ israel’s widespread use of torture is a core element of its genocide against the Palestinian people”

2. https://youtu.be/KjAmlit0yzY “israel’s history of sexual assaults on Palestinian women”

3. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/372963626_Beyond_Ma... “ Beyond Male Israeli Soldiers, Palestinian Women, Rape, and War: israeli State Sexual Violence against Palestinians”

4. https://thejerusalemfund.org/2018/08/sexual-harassment-and-v... “ Sexual Harassment and Violence against Palestinian Women in israeli Prisons”

5. https://zeteo.com/p/palestinian-women-raped-by-israeli “ Palestinian Women 'Raped by israeli Soldiers.' Silence From Western Media”

6. https://www.academia.edu/43471289/Israeli_Settler_Colonialis... “ israeli Settler Colonialism in Context: Celebrating (Palestinian) Death and Normalizing Gender and Sexual Violence”